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Campaign HQ    The Company of the Bright Star Campaign    Vampire

Saturday Campaign Adjustments
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DMShoe
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2001 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been thinking about a couple things for a while, and I've decided to make a suggestion. I would like to know all of your feelings on it, but please take a bit of time to think about it before you reply.

My concern is ability score inflation. I think there is still some leftover bias from second edition regarding ability scores. In 2nd ed, bonuses for ability scores didn't start until 14 or more, so there was a tendency to have characters with 14+ in every stat. In 3e, bonuses begin with scores as low as 12, and scores above 14 should be considered fairly rare.

In looking at the "guidelines" for character stats, standard characters should fall somewhere around the standard array, producing a total around 73 points. "High-powered" characters should total 80. We have characters that are at 94 and 104 using the the point costs from page 20 of the DMG.

The standard array, which is derived from standard point buy (SPB), is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. The "iconic" characters (Tordek, Lidda, et al) and most NPCs in published adventures have been created using SPB. My thursday night group has been using SPB, as we are playtesting.

Of course, your opinions on the use of SPB may vary. I, in fact, think SPB stats a bit too low. But I do like HPPB (high-powered point buy). This allows for a good range of stats, and allows a specialist to really focus on a particular stat/class, while still allowing multi-class characters to have a solid base for their skills. It will mean that instead of 14s as the "average" stats, 12, would be more common, with a 15 or 16 the highest stat for most characters initially.

My proposal is the following:
Everyone can either adjust their existing character to the High-powered point buy, or create a new character with high-powered point buy, keeping the same number of xp. The counter of this is that any major npc's will also use HPPB (which would have significantly reduced the power of the vampire githyanki). Remember racial adjustments, if any, apply after the stats are selected.

Anyway, think about it, and let me know what you think. Post replies on the message board.

-DMShoe
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tykeal
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2001 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I'm not opposed to the SPB system or the HPPB system, I personally prefer the old traditional method of rolling for the stats. Sometimes you will end up with extremely good scores, sometimes not *shrug* it's a toss-up.

Of course, having used the computer to create my first too characters and having it roll probably wasn't the best course of action as the randomness can't be as well guaranteed.

Perhaps giving people the option to roll it (by hand in your pressence) or doing HPPB is a better way of going. I really have no suggestion on how you deal with the NPC's at that point though.

One other option, though it seems rather discriminatory, you could assign some players that play more limited characters well the requirment of useing HPPB and newer players or players that can't seem to play a more limited character the choice between the two.

I remember when you first instituted the point buy for 2E, I liked it better than rolling as my characters were easier to shape. Then I started to realize that all my characters started looking the same. I can't say as I'll go back to a point buy unless it's required.
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Locksley
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2001 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, let me go on record that I like neither the SPB nor the HPPB systems as they are currently implemented. I personally greatly prefer the random creation of 4d6 lose lowest, reroll ones if more than one comes up on a throw. I've had characters I really enjoyed come out of both the "4d6 method" and the "assign 8x points" method, which we have used variantly in Shoe's campaigns through the years. I don't mind a character that has a couple of low scores if he has some middle and high scores as well, although I do share Andy's concern that with point-buy methods, characters start to look the same, numerically, although they can be played differently enough to make them unique.

btb, I checked in with Milt, and between he (85 points), Jesse (76), and my (90) points, we're not sure where the 94 and 104 came from. *shrugs*

Anyway, the point of this post is to make an argument against the point buy systems as they are currently implemented, and suggest an alternative that is only a slight modification which (imho) is better suited to heroic fantasy.

I ran some numbers, and the maximum point value attainable by the HPPB system (by averaging gain across all stats) is 80. (compared to the highest point value attainable with standard point-buy of 72) this is 4 13s and two 14s. anything else starts getting into 2-for-1 swapping, which will decrease the total point value. Note that this is not going to create a "specialized" character, and any such specialization will bring the total down from 80.

If we change the base value for the point buy system to 10 (thereby negating the starting penalty to all stats), the maximum point value bumps up to 88, again, with the note above, granting 14s across the board, with 4 additional stat points to distribute (8 purchase points = 4 stat points since everything is at 14). This seems overpowered again, so probably isn't a better solution than HPPB.

Setting the start value to 9 instead of 8 (split the difference and let's see what we get...) gives a maximum point value of 85, which is split out as 14s across the board with one 15. This is probably more balanced to the heroic fantasy I believe we are playing -- you can have one 18 at the cost of 3 stats going down to 12, leaving a +1 bonus, rather than the penalty that is the starting point for the point buy systems in the book.

The other concern I have about going to a point-buy system (addressing Shoe) is, what happens if you forget to re-stat a creature? Suddenly the balance of the game shifts from challenging to near-impossible?

I'm willing to try a Point-buy campaign -- after all, you only die thrice, or so...before the party decides you're not worth raising every other day Smile Seriously, if you want to go this path, I'm right behind you, but I hope you consider setting the start value to 9 instead of 8 if we go this route (which gives us a couple of points that we can specialize with and still be around 80, instead of around 75ish).

--dez--
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Locksley
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2001 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, let me go on record that I like neither the SPB nor the HPPB systems as they are currently implemented. I personally greatly prefer the random creation of 4d6 lose lowest, reroll ones if more than one comes up on a throw. I've had characters I really enjoyed come out of both the "4d6 method" and the "assign 8x points" method, which we have used variantly in Shoe's campaigns through the years. I don't mind a character that has a couple of low scores if he has some middle and high scores as well, although I do share Andy's concern that with point-buy methods, characters start to look the same, numerically, although they can be played differently enough to make them unique.

btb, I checked in with Milt, and between he (85 points), Jesse (76), and my (90) points, we're not sure where the 94 and 104 came from. *shrugs*

Anyway, the point of this post is to make an argument against the point buy systems as they are currently implemented, and suggest an alternative that is only a slight modification which (imho) is better suited to heroic fantasy.

I ran some numbers, and the maximum point value attainable by the HPPB system (by averaging gain across all stats) is 80. (compared to the highest point value attainable with standard point-buy of 72) this is 4 13s and two 14s. anything else starts getting into 2-for-1 swapping, which will decrease the total point value. Note that this is not going to create a "specialized" character, and any such specialization will bring the total down from 80.

If we change the base value for the point buy system to 10 (thereby negating the starting penalty to all stats), the maximum point value bumps up to 88, again, with the note above, granting 14s across the board, with 4 additional stat points to distribute (8 purchase points = 4 stat points since everything is at 14). This seems overpowered again, so probably isn't a better solution than HPPB.

Setting the start value to 9 instead of 8 (split the difference and let's see what we get...) gives a maximum point value of 85, which is split out as 14s across the board with one 15. This is probably more balanced to the heroic fantasy I believe we are playing -- you can have one 18 at the cost of 3 stats going down to 12, leaving a +1 bonus, rather than the penalty that is the starting point for the point buy systems in the book.

The other concern I have about going to a point-buy system (addressing Shoe) is, what happens if you forget to re-stat a creature? Suddenly the balance of the game shifts from challenging to near-impossible?

I'm willing to try a Point-buy campaign -- after all, you only die thrice, or so...before the party decides you're not worth raising every other day Smile Seriously, if you want to go this path, I'm right behind you, but I hope you consider setting the start value to 9 instead of 8 if we go this route (which gives us a couple of points that we can specialize with and still be around 80, instead of around 75ish).

--dez--
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Dez
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2001 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, let me go on record that I like neither the SPB nor the HPPB systems as they are currently implemented. I personally greatly prefer the random creation of 4d6 lose lowest, reroll ones if more than one comes up on a throw. I've had characters I really enjoyed come out of both the "4d6 method" and the "assign 8x points" method, which we have used variantly in Shoe's campaigns through the years. I don't mind a character that has a couple of low scores if he has some middle and high scores as well, although I do share Andy's concern that with point-buy methods, characters start to look the same, numerically, although they can be played differently enough to make them unique.

btb, I checked in with Milt, and between he (85 points), Jesse (76), and my (90) points, we're not sure where the 94 and 104 came from. *shrugs*

Anyway, the point of this post is to make an argument against the point buy systems as they are currently implemented, and suggest an alternative that is only a slight modification which (imho) is better suited to heroic fantasy.

I ran some numbers, and the maximum point value attainable by the HPPB system (by averaging gain across all stats) is 80. (compared to the highest point value attainable with standard point-buy of 72) this is 4 13s and two 14s. anything else starts getting into 2-for-1 swapping, which will decrease the total point value. Note that this is not going to create a "specialized" character, and any such specialization will bring the total down from 80.

If we change the base value for the point buy system to 10 (thereby negating the starting penalty to all stats), the maximum point value bumps up to 88, again, with the note above, granting 14s across the board, with 4 additional stat points to distribute (8 purchase points = 4 stat points since everything is at 14). This seems overpowered again, so probably isn't a better solution than HPPB.

Setting the start value to 9 instead of 8 (split the difference and let's see what we get...) gives a maximum point value of 85, which is split out as 14s across the board with one 15. This is probably more balanced to the heroic fantasy I believe we are playing -- you can have one 18 at the cost of 3 stats going down to 12, leaving a +1 bonus, rather than the penalty that is the starting point for the point buy systems in the book.

The other concern I have about going to a point-buy system (addressing Shoe) is, what happens if you forget to re-stat a creature? Suddenly the balance of the game shifts from challenging to near-impossible?

I'm willing to try a Point-buy campaign -- after all, you only die thrice, or so...before the party decides you're not worth raising every other day Smile Seriously, if you want to go this path, I'm right behind you, but I hope you consider setting the start value to 9 instead of 8 if we go this route (which gives us a couple of points that we can specialize with and still be around 80, instead of around 75ish).

--dez--
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DMShoe
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2001 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A couple quick notes:

1. the 94 and 104 numbers were based on using the higher point cost of stats above 14. I was going by memory on the Dwarf for the 104, but Kat's character had a score total of 86, with an "adjusted for point-buy" number of 94.

2. Perception. In 2e, a character with all 14s was not all that special. In 3e, a character with all 14s would be all-around great. A 15 or 16 is even more significant, and 17-18 is considered phenomenal. (that's why they are more expensive to "buy")

3. I think that the SPB/HPPB customization allows for more distinction between characters. Players have to choose which stats will be higher, and which ones will be closer to average. Players who want multiple roles can still do them well, with scores in the 14-15 range. Sure, It's hard to get 2 18s, but that's the idea.

4. Characters shouldn't need an initial 18 to survive, however. A starting score of 15 can still result in a 20th level wizard with a 19 Int, plus any inherent or enhancement bonuses from wishes or items, though a 16 may be a wiser starting choice.

5. I would consider reducing costs for 17-18 to 2 points per ability, instead of 3, or maybe allowing 1-for-1 trades up to 15.

6. I guess my point is that the 80-point distribution is alot more powerful in 3e than it was in 2e. The fact that many of the characters are well above the "High-powered campaign" guidelines concerns me.

7. Addressing Steve's concern about NPC and monster Stats: The MM and all WotC product is already based on, and balanced for, a SPB campaign. Since any NPCs or creatures I create will be using these guidelines, then nearly all of them should be "balanced".

-DMShoe
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Dez
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2001 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

re: 80 point distribution

I like 80-point distribution. But let's be clear: HPPB is not an 80 point distribution. You can only achieve 80 points in HPPB with 4x13, 2x14, or any 1-1 trades thereto (i.e., no starting stat above 14). With 80-point distribution, I can (for example) start out with 16, 2x15, 13, 12, 9 (which sum to 80, but cost 36 points to buy -- 4 more than HPPB)

My point of concern with the stat-buys as they are currently deployed such that you can create an all-around just above average character with 80 points in HPPB, while the first message in this thread indicates that ""High-powered" characters should total 80." Basically, I want the discussion to be clear whether we are talking about XX-point _distribution_, or XX point buy, as they are two radically different things.

And, my other frustration with point buy is the base is a -1 penalty to all stats, instead of a 0. I feel that is somewhat harsh, because of the 32 points allocated for HPPB, you must spend 12 of them to get to a no-penalty base, from which you then have 20 points to buy stats with. *shrugs*

Basically, I agree that a character with 5 14s and 1 15 is pretty all-around cool. (my base-it-on-9-instead-of-8 scenario). However, when you start buying up (for example, want 2 16s to start, the numbers (assuming balanced drops) start to look like: 16, 16, 13, 13, 12, 12; and (paying 3 points for the 17's): 17, 16, 12, 12, 12, 11; or (17, 17)||(18, 16), 11, 11, 11, 11...note how the non-focussed stats start to plummet toward average (10-11) _very_ quickly if you are trying to get better than even distribution on the stats.

And, on a tangentally related note, are there any stat tables in the game that are separated point-by-point instead of bonus-by-bonus except the carrying capacity table (9-1, p142 PH)? One of the reasons I want a 16 str (in addition to the high dex for rogue and wis for monk) is so I can actually carry my stuff around w/o dropping my move down to 15 (since we've discovered what happens to mounts that can't climb down ropes into caves, which makes me really leery of spending the character treasure on mount/equip *wry grin*)

--dez--
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Locksley
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2001 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More randomness:

I understand that HPPB isn't always 80 points, My point is that I think that 85 point SUM TOTAL in 2e is roughly the same as HPPB in 3e.

I also realize that with point buy, some stat may likely end up below 10, providing a penalty.

"3e is about choices." Thats the design team's motto. If you are choosing with HPPB to have a high-dex, high-wis, high str character, then your "high" scores are going to be 14s, with maybe a 16, and your Int, Con, and Cha will still be above average. But, and this is important, that is GOOD! Like, REALLY GOOD!

Alternatively, you could put most of your points into three stats, and be under average in three others. Those are the choices you make.

I believe that Str is the only ability score that has gradients at the odd numbers. But remember that there are spells (and potions, I think) that could grant an odd number for enhancement bonus, making the odd stat potentially worthwhile.

Nothing wrong with having a mount. Just don't expect to leave a mount unattended for more than 24 hrs in the dangerous wilderness without something potentially happening to it (Yes, even a warhorse). If you are that concerned about it, then hire some henchman-types to watch the horses. Why you need to carry 76+ pounds of eq... Well, that's a different topic...

-DMShoe
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DMShoe
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2001 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More randomness:

I understand that HPPB isn't always 80 points, My point is that I think that 85 point SUM TOTAL in 2e is roughly the same as HPPB in 3e.

I also realize that with point buy, some stat may likely end up below 10, providing a penalty.

"3e is about choices." Thats the design team's motto. If you are choosing with HPPB to have a high-dex, high-wis, high str character, then your "high" scores are going to be 14s, with maybe a 16, and your Int, Con, and Cha will still be above average. But, and this is important, that is GOOD! Like, REALLY GOOD!

Alternatively, you could put most of your points into three stats, and be under average in three others. Those are the choices you make.

I believe that Str is the only ability score that has gradients at the odd numbers. But remember that there are spells (and potions, I think) that could grant an odd number for enhancement bonus, making the odd stat potentially worthwhile.

Nothing wrong with having a mount. Just don't expect to leave a mount unattended for more than 24 hrs in the dangerous wilderness without something potentially happening to it (Yes, even a warhorse). If you are that concerned about it, then hire some henchman-types to watch the horses. Why you need to carry 76+ pounds of eq... Well, that's a different topic...

-DMShoe
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tykeal
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2001 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heh, I think the "treatise on calculus" came up because this whole thread started on the assumption that we need to re-think how our characters are created. The alternatives listed in the DMG are pay for your stat systems that at certain break points make it more difficult to by the next stat.

I'm with Dez on the starting stat of -1. It's silly to see heros starting completely _below_ average and having to waste 12 points just to get them to the same level of the rest of characterdom.

Also, how heroic is it to have someone that can't carry their gear? Esp since our groups have a high propensity of dungeon crawling. Sorry Shoe, but haveing the party buy mules instead of horses because the PHB said they can be "coaxed" into tunnels isn't going to cut it.
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DMShoe
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2001 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quick note on carrying gear: How heroic is it to be carrying around 70 pounds of stuff? esp. as a rogue or monk character? I can understand a heavily armored fighter, but how much stuff do you really need? I'm not suggesting that every non-fighter should have an 8 strength, and I agree that adventurers should have above average scores. Its just that a 10 or 12 in a non-prime req should be considered a decent score, and a 14 in a non-prime req should be considered odd/amazing/against type.

Now, I have been the master of playing characters against type, with my wizard-class archer and my (SPB) barbarian-like cleric.

-DMShoe
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Locksley
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2001 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tykeal wrote:
> Sorry Shoe, but haveing the party buy mules
> instead of horses because the PHB said they can be "coaxed"
> into tunnels isn't going to cut it.

Well How about shetland ponies. They were primarily used in the shetland coal mines of England.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2001 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tykeal wrote:
> Sorry Shoe, but haveing the party buy mules
> instead of horses because the PHB said they can be "coaxed"
> into tunnels isn't going to cut it.

Well How about shetland ponies. They were primarily used in the shetland coal mines of England.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2001 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well now that I have played under the HPPB system I must admit I really like it. At first I think that most of us were not so keen on having to readjust our scores, but after playing several characters now under the HPPB system we understand that our characters can still be what they aspire to be.

What does everyone else think? This is just my two cents.

-Raz
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Dez
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2001 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still have yet to see any HPPB character that fit the category of "heroic fantasy hero" and was multi-classed between classes that had different prime requisites. As soon as I am presented with convincing evidence to the contrary, I will withdraw my contention that HPPB characters are playable, but not capable of being multi-classed and heroic (I'll freely grant above-average, but not heroic).

--dez--
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Locksley
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2001 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there some reason why this thread is in the Kent Campaign Chat forum?
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Dez
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2001 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Locksley,
yeah -- the db is confused Smile I've asked Tykeal (in the support forum) to see about moving this down to Saturday... *nirg*
--dez--
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2001 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't remember seeing this in the support forum, but anyway I've moved it now.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2001 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After reading all the posts and arguements that people have made I thought I would inject my two cents. I agree with Milt. I like the HPPB system. It gives more control over your character while keeping players from having too powerful of characters. As a DM I know that one of the things I hated were players that had power characters, those who rolled amazing stats. Designing adventures I found myself either choosing more powerful monsters to fight or increasing the power of monsters adaquete to party level.

Anyway, I am fine with HPPB system.

One thing I want to know about is why a character needs to have a 16 str to survive a dungeon crawl. I have my character with a 13 str in dungeon world and I haven't had any problems with carrying eq (and I have no extra dimensional spaces.)
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Locksley
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2001 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Correct me if I'm wrong Jesse, but you're a Monk/Rogue right? Monks, Rogues, Mages, Sorcerers and, to a lesser extent, Bards, are typically the lightweights of a party. Magic-using characters don't usually wear armor, carry scads of weapons, or the like. Rogues don't carry a lot either because of penalties to certain skills. Monks are practically the naked members of the group, neither needing armor nor weapons, or minimal weapons at any rate. Allegedly not materialistic, they have less need to haul around tons of mass, either in equipment or loot.

It isn't that a 16 is required to survive a dungeon crawl. My halfling rogue/necromancer, whom you haven't met, has a strength of 11. He also has an empty Heward's Handy Haversack and carries very little in the way of gear. He's also fearless in combat, wears no armor, and survives MANY challenges, probably more than he has any right to. So clearly a 16 STR isn't required to survive. Steve's point, and correct me if I'm wrong Steve, is that sometimes you want to be someone just AWESOME. You want to be the mage who has bigger brains than most of the gods. You want to be the Archer-From-Hell. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be a ultimate badass, per se. I agree that it isn't required but at the same time, it's cool to be able to just mow down some challenges. There's always someone tougher or smarter than you, though. That's life in D&D.

West End Games, before they lost the Star Wars license from Lucasfilm, had a great quote in one of their RPG books. It went something like, Really creative players are able do more damage with a new character and a single Force point and a handful of character points than average players using Han, Luke, and Leia with all the Force points put together.

To that, it comes down to this. Abilities are important. I don't care how creative you are, a Rogue with a DEX of 10 is not going to acquire a reputation as a "master rogue" when compared to "The Shadow, whose nimbleness and manual skill are reknowned and feared." At the same time, being the penultimate example of mortal skill isn't required either. The problem with HPPB is that you will never have a multiple 16 or 18 character who does have a couple of 3's for stats too. The cool/bad thing about rolling 4d6 is that it's random. You could have a bunch of average stats. You could have a bunch of low stats. You could occasionally have just some PHENOMENAL stats. That's cool.

My justification is that 3E specifically allows that if your stats are at a certain level, you can junk them and re-roll them. Also, I believe that if players were supposed to be SPB or HPPB, that would have been the main system presented in the PHB. But it wasn't. It was left as an optional component. The conclusion I draw is that players are supposed to be above the norm, even heroically above the norm.

And all of that just came down to say, 16 isn't required. HPPB isn't evil. But at the same time, wanting badass stats or to play "The Terminator" isn't evil either.
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DMShoe
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Joined: 23 Feb 2001
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2001 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I mentioned this in another post on the earlier board: A character in heavy or medium armor already has penalties to movement or max dex, that do not stack with penalties for encumbrance.

So a 10 Strength Paladin in Full Plate (50lbs) already has +1 max dex and -6 check penalty, moves at 20' with only a x3 run. He can carry up to 50 pounds of additional gear without penalty.

Or the 8 Str Bard could wear a breastplate, and carry 23 pounds of additional gear, and have no additional penalties than those of the breastplate.

As far as the Master Rogue, at 20th level, the 10 Dex Rogue could have +23 on Dex related skills, not counting magic or equipment bonuses. Sure, the 18 Dex Rogue has a +4 head start, but the 10 Dex Rogue can get by on the strength of his skill ranks.

-DMShoe
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Locksley
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Joined: 21 Feb 2001
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2001 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Rogue is perhaps a bad example. A better one would be wizards, or any spellcasters really. If they ever want to cast high level spells, they are going to end up dumping all of their stat points into their primary attribute because without the appropriate stat, no spells of a given level.
That means they'll never be able to pump up other abilities without magical bonuses or enhancements. That's a better example then the Rogue.
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strattjw
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2001 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that the problem is the way we think about stats. It seems that people think an 18 is needed to be a heroic character. This is not the case. While having an 18 or higher is really nice characters Shoe makes a great point when he shows how level is more important in determining sucess then ability score. Sure, a high ability score helps out for those early levels but later it is level that makes skill checks huge, attack bonus high, extra attacks happen. With the exception of spell casters high ability scores are not a pre-req of powerful characters.
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DMShoe
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some assorted thoughts:

With regard to pure spellcasters (cleric/druid/wizard/sorceror), the primary attribute does become very important, because of the requirement of having a score of 10+spell level to cast a spell.

So where a fighter with a 10 str can still fight, and a rogue with a 10 dex can still rog, a wizard with a 10 int can only cast cantrips.

Every character gets 4 attribute increases before level 17 (the first level 9th level spells are available). Thus, without considering magical aid, the most effective wizards and clerics should begin play with at least a 15 in the primary stat.

But even Standard Point buy allows creation of characters with a 15 "high" score. And it still allows play "against type", i.e. the barbarian cleric and the archer mage. HPPB allows for two or three scores in the 14-16 range without hamstringing the other scores.

Psionics makes things more interesting, because the psionic attack modes, like mind blast and ego whip, deal ability damage to psionic characters (it just stuns non-psions). So the Dwarf psychic warrior with the 6 Charisma could get taken out with a couple of mind blasts. A psion has even more incentive to have high ability scores in all six abilities.

-DMShoe
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Dez
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2001 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While the example of a 20th-level rogue does look impressive, the fact that we've never played a campaign that high should (and in my analyses, does) play a part. Most campaigns I have been in with Shoe cap out between 8th and 10th level, with four exceptions: Dragon Mountain, where I made it to level 13 as a Rogue, Aldurian II, where I think I was level 15 warrior, another campaign that we made it to the 11-13 range (forget which one, but my cleric made it to a 20 Wis!!!), and the last 2E campaign, where we were in the just-above-10 range (I think avg party level was 11 and change...)

But we don't _normally_ make it that far, for whatever reason. So I'm going to ask: below 12th level, (3rd stat boost), how heroic does a dual-class rogue/cleric, for example become?

--dez--
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