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Campaign HQ    The Company of the Bright Star Campaign    Vampire

Saturday Campaign Adjustments
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Dez
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Joined: 25 Feb 2001
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2001 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding medium & heavy armors & penalties not stacking... DMShoe is, of course, right, that characters wearing those armors don't have to stack their armor weight...

However, the lowly Rogue, who doesn't want to wear anything heavier than MW Studded leather (no armor check penalties, light armor) is burdened with 25# of weight that he cannot double-count, because it doesn't have a movement penalty...and suddenly, a 16 str rogue isn't carrying much beyond his armor, weapon, and a couple of items -- unless he is lucky enough to have found an extradimensional storage item (since, by character treasure averages, he can have a weapon or a storage type, but not both...)

just my $0.01955...
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DMShoe
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2001 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This one's kinda long.

Multiclassed spellcasters lose little of their advantages, because their spell progression is slower due to the extra class. Slower spell progression means lower requisite score.

An example of a multiclassed character that works with Standard Point Buy: Gunter, the Barbarian Cleric of Kord (str&luck). His career path follows 1 level of Barbarian, 3-5 levels of cleric. He began with 16 str,14 wis, 12 con, 11 dex, 10 int, 8 cha. He is raising wis as he increases in level. He has weapon focus in greatsword, and simply kicks ass. His primary role in the Return to the Temple playtest was front-line fighter, as he had more hit points than most, and a better attack once he started using bull's strength (at cleric3). His armor class is moderate to low, due to low dex and lack of shield and the occasional rage, but he cleaves through his opponents so quickly that they rarely get a chance to hit him. And if they do hit him, he simply backs up and casts a cure spell.
He also uses divine favor and other spells to make him even more formidable in combat.

His disadvantages: low AC when raging, mitigated by the party agreeing to give him protection magics; low charisma affects his ability to turn undead, but he's much happier bashing them. His attack value is less than a pure warrior's, and his spell progression is lower than a pure cleric's.

Heroic? Most definitely. Like the time he used a feat of strength to pull the party (using pulleys attached to a 10' platform) up from the bottom of a shaft, then dropping the platform onto an irritatingly insane flying cleric (of course, we should have gotten off first). Or the time he critted while power attacking, and killed a dire badger in one hit. Or the time he was raging and took out three troglodytes in one round with great cleave, including the troglodyte sword master.

When the player of the single-classed, min-maxed (for SPB), fighter gapes in awe at the actions of the lowly priest, you know the priest is being heroic.

Add 7 more points to buy stats, and what would Gunter get? Maybe a +1 to AC, and a +1 to Will Saves and an extra spell, and maybe neutralize the -1 penalty on Charisma. All good bonuses, but nothing that would significantly affect the things that he has done, or the things he can do.

Again, it is not the stats that make the PC heroic. It is the actions that the PC performs (or tries to perform). The halfing bull-rushing the gargoyle off the balcony was a heroic act. Horatio the Paladin cleaving through 4 illithids in one round was heroic.

If your only definition of a "heroic" multiclassed character is to have a 17+ in that stat, then I must disagree with your definition. HPPB allows for characters with the following stats: 16,16,12,12,10,10 -- more than sufficient for two classes to have sufficient prime reqs, with no negatives in other scores.

Back to the 10 str rogue wearing studded leather (only 20lbs?), and a couple weapons (rapier, lt. x-bow) is nearing, or at, his weight limit for light encumbrance. perhaps he would be better off in no armor? Maybe he should invest in bracers, or other protective devices. A bag of holding would be ideal, of course, but there are other alternatives.

But the 10 str means that he has better scores in other abilities, right? We focus here on the disadvantage of a 10 str, when we should also look at the advantages he gets by putting 10 in str. It means he can put the 16s somewhere else -- Dex? Con? Int??

My point with this entire discussion is to bend your perception that a character must have certain stats. Again I return to the idea of stat inflation. 2nd Ed. gave minimal rewards for even a 15 in a stat. 3e now gives those same rewards at 12, and spreads the rewards out in a balanced scale.

-DMShoe
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Locksley
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2001 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you! I thought Ash was being pretty heroic too. Smile

I also agree with your little treatise here. I just made a character for the Living Force campaign and those are SPB characters only. ACK! I just about had a cow.

At the same time, I took the effort to think out the character concept and planned ahead. I now have a concept that will let me do a number of things, acting in a fairly heroic fashion, and still be a decently statted character.

I think the big difference between 2nd Edition and 3rd Edition is that in 3E, they expect you to rely on the class, not the stat, to get the job done. That's taking a bit of getting used to, for me anyway.
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tykeal
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2001 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm, I agree. It's taking getting used to the change in mentality needed to shift from 2e to 3e. Hopefully come August we'll finally be comfortable with it as the system will have been out a year.

Of course we could all just be mired in our ways and not want to change.... Wink
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Locksley
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2001 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NAW! Not us! The infinitely malleable Players? Pshaw!
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strattjw
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2001 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Change??? Yeah, I got some in my pocket... somewhere.
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Dez
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2001 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*wry grin* well...it just shows where the conversation can lead...

my definition of heroic is tied partly to stats, mostly to actions: stats: average-to-above average should be the minimum, not the norm...actions should be amazingly above the norm. The only real beef I have with HPPB is that it starts adventurers who (i'm guessing) aspire to become heroes below average in all stats. It's semantics, I know ("just pretend you get 20 points for HPPB instead of 32, Steve":wink:, but it's the principle that bugged me.

And the concern I initially had about weight/strength? I still haven't seen a post concerning ruminations people may have had about why the "carrying capacity" table is the _only_ table in the core rules that separates ability scores by ones rather than twos. Perhaps noone has thought about this, I don't know. I do know that at first level I've got money for armor, but not for magical bracers that provide the same level of protection, which is why that hasn't been an "out" my characters have pursued...

Anyway...I agree with DMShoe (big surprise here) that heroes aren't defined by their stats. It didn't take an 18 int or a 17 str to bullrush the gargoyle off of the belltower -- it took a character willing to take a risk to win.

my coppers, again.
--dez--
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Locksley
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2001 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And the gargoyle pushing character for anyone who missed it was A S H !!! Wink

I'm sorry. I just can't resist. A little STR 10 halfling bullrushes a GARGOYLE. That just cracks me up. And didn't die from it. Smile

Of course, later, dying was definitely on Ash's to-do list.
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tykeal
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2001 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can someone post the current party composition for Saturday. I want to play a balancing character. Hmm... maybe a *gasp* cleric! Would I be the first in our group to play a 3E cleric?
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Locksley
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2001 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Stevie is playing a Paladin/Cleric.
Another would NOT hurt. Smile

Milton is a 6th level Psion
Locklsey is a 6th level Psychic Warrior
Steve is his Dwarven Rogue to-be-Monk
Katherine is a Ranger-thingy.
Jesse is a Monk/Rogue
Stevie is a Paladin/Cleric

I believe this is the accurate list of our crew...
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Locksley
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2001 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding party make-up for Saturday...

Actually, we are woefully short of magical power. Even a bard would be a big improvment in terms of that, though a wizard or sorcerer would provide a much bigger punch.

And you'd be the only wizard. When was the last time THAT happened? Jesse's not a wizard. I'm not a Wizard. Nobody is running around with Arcane magic. Smile Worth checking out, I think. B)
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tykeal
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2001 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm... I've had this notion bouncing around inside my head since the Psi book came out. Perhaps I'll play a Wiz / Psi (Shaper) - they share Int as prime req. But thinking about it more, I don't think I will.

I'll just have to ponder some more.
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Locksley
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2001 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The combination of Psionics and Magic sounds really viable, and potent. However, I think that unless you're using the Psionics is different rules, you don't get the full benefit, because the magic that protects against spell effects does the same against Psionics.

Personally, I would argue that with arcane magic, you're channeling energy from the world around you. With divine magic, you're channeling it from a deity. With psionics, you're using energy inherent to you, and thus different from the other two.

I understand that by treating psionics as a different form of magic, it helps balance the game and doesn't remove Psions so far from other characters that there have to be special tools just to defeat them. Still, it's be pretty effective to make an abjurer memorize protection from XXX and protection from psionics. Eats up two spells. Smile I don't know.

I think a really balanced character would be a Psychic Warrior/Bard, believe it or not. When I grow up, that's what I want to be.
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Shadowlord
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2001 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Granted this is an old topic, but I felt the need to add two cents to it. My experience comes from mudding, and an OLD mud at that. Because you don't see any of the rolls that determine how the game plays, it is very easy to look at the game from just a statistical point of view.

With the right equipment (given time, too easy to accumulate) and the right stats (easy enough to get if you have enough patience) you can anhiliate almost anything as a matter of course. With a roll of the dice, this is much less likely to happen.

I forget the name of Katherine's character from Sunday, but in a mud, the way she took out the Behir would either have been routine, or impossible. In other words, there is little room for heroic actions.

After watching Sunday, it was easy to see why the characters are called heros more often then adventurer's. The nature of the game play allows for amazing feats. I guess it is really easy to look at the numbers as an end all, but numbers are only the means to an end. Granted, they are an important means. Wink

I guess that my point is this... Looking at all my vast RPG experience *cough cough* numbers aren't as important to heroism as individual actions. It isn't heroic when you KNOW every time you swing at whatever NPC you will hit it exactly the same. That is what I enjoyed about Sunday. The combat wasn't preprogrammed predictable.

Anyway, that's the humble opinion of someone who has yet to roll the dice. Wink

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Razputyn
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2001 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah I guess that is right, not knowing that you are going to hit something exactly the same every time. I just wished it went the same for the DM and his monsters. He hit my characters often and I died often. Bleh!

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Dez
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2001 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed. However, I still contend that heroic characters (unless they are intended to be tragic heroes) should not baseline below average. *shrugs* i won't clamber onto the soapbox again.

--dez--
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Razputyn
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2001 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You die...you learn. At least I will try to remember that I can't fight Slaads with less than half hit points.

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DMShoe
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2001 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two points:

First, from now on, when we do point buy characters, Mr Cook will start with all stats at 10, but receive 12 fewer points to distribute.

Second, when you have 7 (or fewer) hit points, it is most unwise to make yourself a target for the creature that does 2d8+6 dmg. (or was it 2d6+8.. I don't recall.) Especially after you've already fallen four times in that very combat.

-DMShoe
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Razputyn
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2001 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was trying to be heroic!!!! But I failed miserably and was punished in that life and the life after!!! *Sigh*


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Dez
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2001 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*rofl* Gee, DMShoe, you're very generous. You mean I can start at 10 points as if I had started at 8? Wow. *cackle*

re: Raz's insistence on combat...when you're that determined to die, I think it's the DM's right to slay you (unless the DM is exceptionally sadistic, in which case they do something like not let you die, regardless of how hard you try, but not let you have any positive effect on events either...)

--dez--
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tykeal
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2001 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*snicker* is that like haveing a god come down and hold the character from effecting events around them?

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Razputyn
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2001 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slay me once, I agree!!! I should be punished for my stupidity. The second time though I believe was a bit harsh. Smack on the one behind you instead of the others in front. Bleh!!! Yeah, yeah I know it is good strategy to take out the weakest link first, but BLEH!!!

-Raz

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Razputyn
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2001 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, yeah laugh it up Tyke!!! Razz

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[ This Message was edited by: Razputyn on 2001-06-08 16:06 ]
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Dez
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2001 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tyke - yeah, pretty much. or making them ethereal or ephemeral...

raz - FWIW, if my dice had been more forgiving, it would have been me behind the drider taking the damage...you succeeded first, which made you the first target Sad

--dez--
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Razputyn
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2001 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah I know!!! It's ok. Like you said there should be plenty of dough left to raise my sorry carcass!!! I kind of like this last one!!! Anyways, with the type of XP that we got for finishing off the mimic, hydra, and driders, it shouldn't be too much of an xp hit. Wink

-Raz


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