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Campaign HQ    The Company of the Bright Star Campaign    Vampire

Quicker than the eye and Expert Tactician

 
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Razputyn
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2002 11:17 am    Post subject: Quicker than the eye and Expert Tactician Reply with quote

I was just wondering if the Quicker than the Eye feat in S&S would trigger the Expert Tactician ability?

-Raz
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DMShoe
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2002 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Refresh me briefly on the Quicker than the Eye feat?

-DMShoe
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Dez
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2002 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought it was: with a successful bluff check, you gain an additional +4 attack modifier...

--dez--
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strattjw
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2002 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quicker than the Eye allows you to make a bluff check as a move equiv action and if you suceed then you deny your opponent their dexterity when you attack.

-- jesse
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DMShoe
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2002 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My first stab at this would be as follows:

A successful Bluff check makes the target lose his Dex bonus for the next attack directed at him. At that point, he is denied Dex, and Expert Tactician would allow a free attack (with sneak attack, if applicable). However, once that attack is made, then the target regains his dex bonus.

You could then attack him again, but he wouldn't be denied his Dex anymore, so it wouldn't be another sneak attack.

Same as if you were hasted, and used your extra partial action to Bluff, and then full attack -- the target would lose his Dex to the first attack at him, but not the others.

I think the Gladiator class from S&F had a similar ability at first level.

-DMShoe
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Razputyn
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2002 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The main reason I ask is to determine if I get the extra partial action from both feats. I agree that only one of the attacks should be without the dex bonus to a.c.

What I want to do is take a move equivalent to make my bluff check, then if successful, take my expert tactician partial action, then take my quicker than the eye partial action, and finish off with my standard action.

Is this ok, or am I just walking into the crystal shop again?

-Raz
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DMShoe
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2002 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So does Quicker than the Eye mirror the Expert Tactician feat? Or does it make Bluffs a move-equiv?

I'll probably be better able to address this with the books in front of me.

(Normally a Bluff check is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.)

And remember the special errata for ExpTac -- it only grants a free attack, not an extra partial action.

-DMShoe
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Razputyn
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2002 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quicker Than the Eye [General]

Your hands can move so quickly that observers don't see what you've done.

Pre-req. Dex 19+

Benefit: While under direct observation, you can make a bluff check as a move-equivalent action, opposed by the Spot checks of any observers. If you succeed, your misdirection makes them look elsewhere while you take a partial action. If your partial action is an attack against someone who failed the opposed check, that opponent is denied a Dexterity bonus to AC.

Expert Tactician [General]

Your tactical skills work to your advantage.

Pre-req. Dex 13+, base attack bonus +2, Combat Reflexes.

Benefit: You can make one extra melee attack (or do anything that can be done as a melee attack or a melee touch attack, including attempts to disarm, trip, or make a grap to start a grapple) against one foe who is within melee reach and denied a Dexterity bonus against your melee attacks for any reason. You take your extra attack when it's your turn, either before or after your regular action. If several foes are within melee reach and denied Dexterity bonuses against your attacks, you can use this feat against only one of them.

Both of these are quoted directly from "Song and Silence: A guidebook to Bards and Rogues" by David Noonan and John D. Rateliff.

Just to help you decide if what I am trying to accomplish can actually work.

-Raz
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DMShoe
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2002 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quicker than the Eye doesn't actually give you an additional partial action. The partial action referred to in the feat description actually refers to the other part of your round (move + action, and you've already taken the move).

A good example of this very question is on page 70 of the most recent DnD FAQ, found here

-DMShoe
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Razputyn
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2002 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's not how I read it, but if that is the law, then that is it.

-Raz
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Dez
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2002 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

*chuckles* well, if that's not what you read, you should look at it again. QttE doesn't say anything about "bonus" or "extra" partial action...it just lets you make the Bluff check as a move-equiv, instead of a standard action...

So, the question becomes: Can I deny their dex 2x in a round (move-equiv, move-equiv), and take the ExpTac attack each time?

e.g., Bluff (QttE/move equiv), Expert Tactician (bonus action), Bluff (QttE/move equiv), Expert Tactician (bonus action)

This is assuming that both bluff checks are successful...

--dez--
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DMShoe
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2002 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would initially suggest that Expert Tactician could only be used once in a round -- the description of the feat indicates that even with multiple opponents, only one bonus attack is possible.

But you could use your standard action to bluff again, yes.. and the target would be denied his dex for your next attack -- which will likely be the following round (unless hasted).

-DMShoe
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strattjw
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2002 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this very question is answered in the latest FAQ on the wizards site. it states:



Suppose Im a rogue with the Expert Tactician feat from
Sword and Fist and the Quicker Than the Eye feat from
Song and Silence. If Im in melee with an opponent and use
a move-equivalent action to Bluff my foe and get him to
look away, can I do the extra attack from the Expert
Tactician feat? If I do that, can I then use my remaining
partial action to run away? What happens if I use my
partial action to use Bluff again? Can I then make a second
free attack?
An opponent who fails to detect your Bluff when you use
Quicker Than the Eye does not see the partial action you take
after the Bluff, so your opponent is denied his Dexterity bonus
against your melee attacks. If you also have the Expert
Tactician feat, you can make an immediate free attack against a
foe who failed his Spot check against your Bluff. Once you do
so, that opponent is observing you again, and that opponent
will observe you if you try to run away after the free attack.
Because the attack you make by virtue of your Expert Tactician
feat is a free action, you could attempt to use Quicker Than the
Eye again, but your opponent should get a bonus to the Spot
check. The second Bluff check also is a move-equivalent
action, so you would be done acting for the round. If the second
Bluff check succeeded, however, your opponent would once
again not see you, and you could make another free attack by
virtue of your Expert Tactician feat.
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Dez
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2002 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow...I was right...I'm guessing the recommended bonus to the second Sense Motive would be something on the order of 10-15 or so., though...
Smile

--dez--
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Razputyn
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2002 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SWEET!!!! That was what I was going to ask about next. So is this something that is allowed in your dungeonworld DMShoe or is this going to be something that is not allowed?

-Raz
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DMShoe
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2002 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The FAQ also mentions that Animal Affinity isn't an enhancement bonus.

But, if you want to do it, fine. If I feel that it is too much after a few sessions, then I'll let you know. After all, you are spending three feats to get that far (Combat Reflexes, ExpTac, and QttE), and need to have a natural 19+ Dex to take QttE.

If I decided that a limit was appropriate, then I would go back to my earlier statement of one ExpTac attack per round.

-DMShoe
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